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Message 816 - Posted: 29 Jan 2013, 19:12:31 UTC - in response to Message 815.
Last modified: 29 Jan 2013, 19:21:16 UTC

WCG has details of CPU time for each project that a user participated in, and the stats sites have when it was done. You could also deduce WCG project minimum CPU times based on their project badges,

Blue 2years, Green 1year, Red 180days...
Of course it would be difficult to work out if WUProp was running on the systems and you wouldn't want to be doing such data collation, so I guess people with several years of work, including expired projects won't be recognised for their contributions.

Help Cure Muscular Dystrophy - Phase 2 16,124,269 50,335 20:178:23:35:36 [Sapphire Badge (2 years) for Help Cure Muscular Dystrophy - Phase 2]
Help Fight Childhood Cancer 21,389,813 26,079 24:205:17:55:40 [Sapphire Badge (2 years) for Help Fight Childhood Cancer]
Help Conquer Cancer 12,905,909 53,346 13:108:20:48:10 [Sapphire Badge (2 years) for Help Conquer Cancer]

Then there is the issue of skewing CPU vs GPU research!
1 CPU with 8 threads will give up to 192h of CPU time per day, but a GTX680 coud only get up to 24h, despite having 8 SM's, hundreds of CUDA cores and despite the fact that it does way more work. I guess you based that on RunTime rather than CPU time, otherwise it would be even worse.

If I'm not mistaken people could run on Windows and Linux to get two different sets of apps, say in a VM.

I don't see any mention of Beta apps that are being tested.

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Message 817 - Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 13:57:18 UTC - in response to Message 816.
Last modified: 30 Jan 2013, 14:03:10 UTC

Not sure why there are two lists?

Reported data
Project Application Running time (hours)

pogs fitsedwrapper 1,318.98
Docking Charmm 34a2 1,152.78
Poem@Home POEM++ OpenCL version 1,002.43
FreeHAL@home FreeHAL 2012 app 553.13
World Community Grid Say No to Schistosoma 238.77
Asteroids@home Period Search Application 230.82
World Community Grid Computing for Clean Water 220.28
Albert@Home Binary Radio Pulsar Search (Arecibo) 161.95
World Community Grid Drug Search for Leishmaniasis 153.65
boincsimap BOINCSIMAP simap application 141.05
World Community Grid GO Fight Against Malaria 118.35
GPUGRID Long runs (8-12 hours on fastest card) 107.83
World Community Grid Help Fight Childhood Cancer 98.98
Donate@Home test alpha. Required: Internet connection, allow in antivirus, not for XP 92.05
World Community Grid Help Conquer Cancer 58.52
MindModeling@Beta ACT-R cognitive modeling environment leveraging Clozure Common Lisp 42.28
Rioja Science Triatomic quasiclassical trajectory calculation S2 38.95
yoyo@home evolution@home 34.75
Einstein@Home Binary Radio Pulsar Search (Arecibo) 16.17
Reported data
Project Application Running time (hours)

Milkyway@Home MilkyWay@Home 6.75
GPUGRID ACEMD2: GPU molecular dynamics 3.97
GPUGRID ACEMD beta version 3.30
World Community Grid Beta - FightAIDS@Home 2.28

With Beta apps such as WCG's Beta - FightAIDS@Home there should be plenty of projects available, but getting 100 hours could be an issue!

zombie67 [MM],
It doesn't seem to be the case that it's based on App version, but rather on name; GPUGrid replaced their app about a week ago. In this case it's irrelevant whether or not you use Linux or Win, they are considered the same app. So you can have different versions of the same app, but they will all count as being the one app. Thus GPUGrid has 3 apps:

ACEMD2: GPU molecular dynamics
ACEMD beta version
Long runs (8-12 hours on fastest card)

http://wuprop.boinc-af.org/active_projects.py

BTW. There is one noticeable app missing from the list!
Yes, it WUProp's Data Collect app.

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Message 818 - Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 14:06:01 UTC

My observation and opinion is that the lists are broken down in 20 increments for simplicity even though the first one on mine is actually 19. I too noticed WUProp was not on there. So, I can only make guesses on why it wasn't included. Perhaps the Admin would like to chime in on reasons for the decisions made.

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Message 819 - Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 18:53:57 UTC - in response to Message 818.

IIRC WUProp doesn't gather stats on itself as some people would creat a billion VMs running nothing but WUProp to gain huge amounts of utterly useless credit ;) So WUProp isn't a monitored application.

Anyway, the more I think about this, the more I like the idea. The badge is like Free-DC MegaMilestones, but in a handy, er, badge :)

Cheers,

Al.

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Message 820 - Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 20:17:43 UTC - in response to Message 819.

IIRC WUProp doesn't gather stats on itself as some people would creat a billion VMs running nothing but WUProp to gain huge amounts of utterly useless credit ;) So WUProp isn't a monitored application.

Cheers,

Al.


Well some people are doing that anyway, here at several other NCI Project's, they have maybe 10 Computers but 100+ VM's ...
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Message 823 - Posted: 1 Feb 2013, 16:34:06 UTC - in response to Message 770.

The badge won't be retroactive.

Then it loses any meaning.

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Message 824 - Posted: 1 Feb 2013, 18:22:58 UTC - in response to Message 818.
Last modified: 1 Feb 2013, 18:53:38 UTC

My observation and opinion is that the lists are broken down in 20 increments for simplicity even though the first one on mine is actually 19. I too noticed WUProp was not on there. So, I can only make guesses on why it wasn't included. Perhaps the Admin would like to chime in on reasons for the decisions made.


Perhaps WUProp is inherently included so there are only 19 in the first list. If so then it would make sense that you only need 19 projects with more than 100h run time to get the first badge. If not, it just messes up the groups of 20.

It would make more sense for projects to include a badge system at their inception than trying to apply badges retrospectively, but better late than never.

There are 4 things I take issue with:
1. Most people won't get a badge unless they participate in 20 projects/sub-projects. Obviously this excludes the more choosy/exclusive crunchers that spend just as much time crunching for a few projects.
2. The fact that it stops abruptly at Sapphire for a mere 5000 CPU hours; that's only 26days for a single 8thread CPU. Hardly a runtime challenge, and really down to project up time/life time (so out of our hands). For perspective I've 20years for a single WCG project. That's 175,000 hours and I doubt that I would be inside the top 200 for that project. Even their 2year Blue badge represents 17,500hours. 5000h is far too short.
3. The fact that you cannot get the highest badges unless you participate in many projects - some of which people would not otherwise want to participate in. It encourages people to participate in projects for the wrong reasons - philatelic-esk exhibitionism.
4. It's not retroactive. Not overly bothered about this.

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Message 825 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 1:43:15 UTC

19 applications in the first list was a bug. This is fixed.


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Message 826 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 1:44:55 UTC - in response to Message 813.

Yes, please define "application".

If project Fu changes their app from 1.23 to 1.24, and I ran both, does that count as two apps?

No

If project Fu has a linux and a windows app, and I ran both, does that count as two apps?

No

If project Fu has a windows 32 bit app and a windows 64 bit app, and I ran both, does that count as two apps?

No


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Message 827 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 13:20:24 UTC
Last modified: 2 Feb 2013, 13:32:29 UTC

It's only a reward for decication to the Boinc project as a whole, as Formula Boinc, an incentive to participate in more projects than the chase for credits does :)

Of course retroactivity would have been nice but one cant magically obtain data that doesnt exist.

Primegrid could make it (as enigma did too) because their badges are credit based and the design of their db made it possible.
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Message 828 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 20:33:34 UTC - in response to Message 824.
Last modified: 2 Feb 2013, 20:33:55 UTC



2. The fact that it stops abruptly at Sapphire for a mere 5000 CPU hours; that's only 26days for a single 8thread CPU. Hardly a runtime challenge, and really down to project up time/life time (so out of our hands). For perspective I've 20years for a single WCG project. That's 175,000 hours and I doubt that I would be inside the top 200 for that project. Even their 2year Blue badge represents 17,500hours. 5000h is far too short.


Unless you only want the one star badge to Sapphire, then you would need to multiply this by 5 to include all 5 stars. However, that is still easily obtainable with only a handful of projects on that same 8 core system. I agree the time ran should be much greater. Modern computers make it easy now and future computers will only expedite that.

I also agree that this badge system may require supporting projects other then your interest, but I think badge hunters tend to support most projects anyways. The uniqueness of this badge system is that it gives an additional form of contribution aknowlegement. That level is showing that you are more diverse. Otherwise, someone will just get another badge for supporting an inflated point rewarding project.

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Message 829 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 21:21:51 UTC
Last modified: 2 Feb 2013, 21:25:24 UTC

Not everybody is running 8 Core Computers, I just overhauled most of my Box's after 7 years of running 4 Core Q6600 ala 965 Motherboards. I did 17 Box's & have already sold 12 of the 965 Motherboards on E-Bay & AMAZON. So there's still a lot of older Computers out there.

If the requirements are to hard those older Box's would have to hard a time getting to the higher Level Badges. Not Everybody has 50+ Box's like you either or 100 + Box's like some People have. Some of us actually have to Pay for their Hardware & Electricity so the Badges need to be reachable for us too & not only the Corporate/Company/Office/Collage runners who share none of the Pain us Home Crunchers have to endure ...

Just about reached my 1'st Badge: I'm going Big or I'm going Home ... :D

pogs fitsedwrapper 21,893.87
yoyo@home Harmonious Trees 12,550.45
World Community Grid Help Conquer Cancer 5,287.52
FreeHAL@home FreeHAL 2012 app 3,609.63
yoyo@home Cruncher ogr 2,824.93
ABC@home ABC sieving finder 2,623.37
OProject@Home ALX 1,793.97
yoyo@home evolution@home 1,463.12
SubsetSum@Home SubsetSum@Home 801.60
yoyo@home Muon 761.98
World Community Grid The Clean Energy Project - Phase 2 369.03
primaboinca primaboinca 356.87
NumberFields@home Get Decic Fields 353.27
Asteroids@home Period Search Application 307.75
Donate@Home test alpha. Required: Internet connection, allow in antivirus, not for XP 157.70
World Community Grid Drug Search for Leishmaniasis 136.93
World Community Grid Say No to Schistosoma 135.97
yoyo@home ecm 115.20
World Community Grid GO Fight Against Malaria 111.57
World Community Grid FightAIDS@Home 73.38
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Message 830 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 21:38:45 UTC - in response to Message 829.
Last modified: 2 Feb 2013, 21:45:35 UTC

I agree STE\/E that it needs to include the smallest of the small crunchers, but it needs to also apply to the heavy hitters. That is why the top rung needs to be tough to achieve. The low rung is for those who want aknowledged and the rest are just goals. We aren't just looking for someone to participate for a few months and then move on. It needs to be a long term commitment for everyone. Take WCG for example. Many today still have the mindset of completing the Gold badge which used to be the standard. The Sapphire is easily attainable even by most contributors. However, their badges do not encourage continued contribution because of how easy it is to obtain and so those resources move on in many cases. There are still some who stick around regardless. But, there are still many who move on. 20 apps at 100 hour/app is only 2000 total hours of run time. So, 8 single core/thread pentium 1's will still get there just as quick as the single 8 core/thread PC.(yes I know the little guys aren't necessarily going to have 8 PC's around to use) The simple equation is that if you want the maximum, you gotta contribute that much. If you want aknowlegement, you just need the commitment. Leave bronze simple for the small guys, but make Sapphire a serious challenge.

The single bronze star would only require the old single thread/core PC to run each app for less then 5 days.

And I agree that some have easier access to resources. Many of the PC's on my list are borged from friends. (Yes I get permission) I think there is only one work PC listed on there and it is a Virtual Machine using 3 cores part time. I have also repaired/resurrected many older PC's and given them to the needy or upgraded older systems for friends/family/needy for free and in return got them to agree to let me borg them. I even have my phone attached, so the resources are there for anyone who seeks them.

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Message 831 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 22:05:19 UTC - in response to Message 828.
Last modified: 2 Feb 2013, 22:39:50 UTC

Overall it's probably good that some people will consider new projects as a result of this; not every project is well supported, while some are oversubscribed.
I will still stick to my project principles, Medical/Biological/Energy/Materials/Astronomy type research projects rather than Mathematics project, even if it means less glamorous bling. You have to stay true to yourself.

Up until a few weeks ago I had been crunching for new projects and pushing some projects to new milestones. Pity those milestone efforts mostly preceded this badge launch, but I'm sure I will get round to more milestone chasing for most of those projects. Recently I've been concentrating on testing, and not bothering about badges or rankings. Only 35 projects I've crunched for are still active. So 100 apps could be difficult for me. I had run many apps at ibercivis and WCG that no-longer exist, including a years worth of Betas for probably 10+ projects, but if any new projects come along I'll give them due consideration.

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Message 832 - Posted: 2 Feb 2013, 22:07:01 UTC

We aren't just looking for someone to participate for a few months and then move on. It needs to be a long term commitment for everyone


A NCI Project like WUProp is a no brainer to run, set it & forget it really. So anybody can get a badge eventually if they run the Project. Like the saying goes, even a blind squirrel can find an acorn once in a while ... lol
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Message 842 - Posted: 7 Feb 2013, 16:51:54 UTC

Like many of my teammates, I am a sucker for badges. PG and WCG already got me roped in, why not one more. But I know I am a long way away from that first bronze star, but it appears a number of us will have to start doing more work on our back-up-when-everything-else-is-out-of-work projects. Off we go.

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Message 845 - Posted: 7 Feb 2013, 20:16:06 UTC - in response to Message 842.

A few suggestions:
It’s hard to distinguish between some of the colours; ‘gold’ looks like yellow on a monitor, silver is grey and bronze is brown, and not everyone has full colour vision.
I suggest adding an ‘on-mouse-over’ text tip to name the badge; ‘bronze for 20apps over 100h’, or ‘100h for 20 apps’…
It would also make sense to be able to see other people’s contributions; be able to click on their badge to see what they have done.
You might want to consider a greyed out badge for those who have not reached 20x100h, or a ring without any badge on it for people that have say 100h for at least 1 project?
These things are done at other projects.
Again, why stop at 5000 hours and why only use 3 of the 4 precious stones? You could add diamond for 10,000h or stretch the list out with the more interesting stones such as Amethyst, Jasper, Quartz, Turquoise, Hematite…

Some observations on trying to reach the milestones, and the inherent difficulties:
Although it wasn’t all that difficult to take 20apps past 100h, and won’t be hard to reach 250h or 5000 for that matter, just finding 40 apps (for projects I’m prepared to crunch for) is much more of a challenge. The first thing is finding enough live projects, and determining which you have already achieved a milestone on and which need some work. You basically need to list your Boinc projects, remove the dead/inactive projects, and then tick those off that you have already reached your goals for. You also have to account for some oddities, SIMAP is actually boincsimap, HAL@Home is FreeHAL@home, theSkyNet POGS is just pogs, Donate and projects you have no credit for aren’t listed by Boinc, WCG isn’t linked and doesn't list it's sub-projects, ditto for other multi-projects. Then you have to adjust for numerous intermittent projects by regularly checking if they have work.
Other considerations include limiting the number of projects you have on each system, to prevent Boinc eating up all the hard drives free space; if you have 60+ projects attached to the one system Boinc could fill a small SSD drive. Projects are good at creating directories and adding files, but sometimes aren’t that interested when it comes to cleaning them up.
Extrapolate these problems to 100 applications and trying to get a new badge moves from being fun or interesting to being a real pain.

Can you find a way to help crunchers work-out which apps to run. Something that allows users to see their Boinc projects, as listed in ‘Your Account’, identify the Live projects, list their available apps and basically suggest what people should run to reach the next new badge level(s). Listing what you have done is important, but listing what you haven’t becomes more important the more projects you want to participate at.

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Message 846 - Posted: 7 Feb 2013, 20:44:30 UTC

It would also make sense to be able to see other people’s contributions; be able to click on their badge to see what they have done


I thought that might be a good idea too, but then had second thoughts about it as it could lead to arguments on who ran the more worthy projects which is really all in the eye of the beholder ... ;)


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Message 852 - Posted: 8 Feb 2013, 13:28:54 UTC - in response to Message 845.

Ralph isn't working; CPU times are being included with Rosetta's.

Below is a result returned earlier today,

2861957 2526944 8 Feb 2013 7:15:36 UTC 8 Feb 2013 11:27:08 UTC Over Success Done 3,482.09 29.86 34.56

The application is called 'Rosetta Mini'
From my account page:
rosetta@home Rosetta Mini 40.80

The present app used by Ralph is Rosetta Mini 3.45.

Can you not segregate by Project and then by app?

So I'm stuck on 39 projects, and that includes a pile of Betas.

PS. Your anti-spam system is a pain.

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Message 853 - Posted: 8 Feb 2013, 16:46:30 UTC - in response to Message 852.

Thanks for fixing Ralph :)

ralph@home Rosetta Mini 2.82...

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