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Sellyme
 
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Message 1577 - Posted: 6 Sep 2013, 11:39:54 UTC - in response to Message 1345.

Let's go through the proposed schemes


<leave current badges at current levels>
10,000 hours
25,000 hours
50,000 hours
100,000 hours
250,000 hours


Zombie would already have one of the 10,000 hour badge, and Ruby/Gold/Bronze 6th/7th/8th stars. STE\/E probably would too.


24h (day) - 20days total (20apps each for a day)
168h (week)
730h (month averaged)
2,190h (quarter/season)
4,380h (half a year)
8,760h (1year)
17,520h (2years)
26,280h (3years)
35,040h (4years)
43,800h (5years)
Maybe do as Bok suggested or just drop the last colored star,
87,600h(10years - decade)

5 stars for 20*5years would take STE\/E ~4years, or another 3.5 from now.



This system would remove some badges that users already have, and I'd recommend against it for that reason.


No star, but badge: 1 day (24 hours)
84 hours (half a week, 3.5 days)
168 hours (1 week)
504 hours (3 weeks) or 336 hours (2 weeks, half a month)
720 hours (1 month)
2,160 hours (3 months, one season)
4,320 hours (6 months, half a year)

With the exception of the 504 hours option for the gold badge, they would all be slightly lower than the current requirements, so no-one would lose a badge, addressing Bok's concerns.

Personally I prefer the 336 hours figure for the gold star over 504. Whilst 504 is a lot closer (only being four hours above, way too little to be bothered complaining about a lost badge), and 336 hours is nearly an entire week shorter, the progression of 1 week > 2 weeks > 1 months is a lot smoother and more aesthetically pleasing. Having going from a gold to ruby star being easier than from silver to gold seems a bit silly.

Extending the stars

For the main piece, extended stars! Again, I'm going for slight modifications of skgiven's figures.

8,760 hours (1 year)
17,520 hours (2 years)
43,800 hours (5 years
87,600 hours (10 years, a decade)
219,000 hours (25 years)

I agree with Ste\/E's concerns about latter badges being impossible to get, again using zombie67's stats, he would only have the first badge in that extended series, and only just, with his 20th application at 8,833.57 hours. I don't know Ste\/e's stats (as much as I'd love to), as he hasn't made them public, but I assume he wouldn't be much higher up. As such, I would completely support the 25 year star not being included. Not only is it at a level that not even the highest-ranking contributors on WUProp would achieve (even for just 20 apps) for nearly six years, but it's also kind of ugly.

It's predecessor, the decade-long Sapphire-on-Ruby badge, might also be dropped: a quick estimate says that it will take Ste\/e around 5 years to get that, and he has already expressed distaste with going for the plain Sapphire for the 5th star. I doubt that anyone else would ever be able to get that for any more than maybe the first two, or in zombie67's case, maybe the third, too.


This system would leave Zombie with a Sapphire-on-Bronze badge, as well as a 6th badge being ruby, a 7th being gold, and an 8th being bronze (which, excluding the "-on-Bronze", is exactly what he has now, showing that it's fairly balanced).

Either of the first or third systems could be implemented without many people (if any) actually disliking the change, imo, and I believe that the sooner it's done the better, lest we lose some of the contributors who have nothing more to try to achieve.

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Message 1578 - Posted: 6 Sep 2013, 11:40:21 UTC
Last modified: 6 Sep 2013, 12:05:09 UTC

Yeah, I kind of dislike the concept of exporting not being on by default: there's really no good reason for it, and it makes it difficult to make informed discussion on this kind of thing


Yeah, it would be much better to force it on the populaces rather than letting them have a choice ... :P ... Personally I like keeping them guessing to just where I'm at.

I will say this, I do have 8 Star's of varying Color & I'm getting very close to already having 20 Projects over 25k with another 20 Projects pushing the 10k Level ... :D
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Message 1579 - Posted: 6 Sep 2013, 12:40:36 UTC - in response to Message 1578.


Yeah, it would be much better to force it on the populaces rather than letting them have a choice ... :P ... Personally I like keeping them guessing to just where I'm at.


How about having it on by default, but opt out? That way people have a choice, and the 99% of users happy to enable it but just don't know it's there will have it enabled.

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Message 1580 - Posted: 6 Sep 2013, 14:55:39 UTC

Sellyme, I'm not sure what you were arguing about WUProp points, but that should be brought up in another post. It could be a very long drawn out discussion on weights and measures of systems vs. points. I don't think that subject has anything to do with the badges being upgraded unless we change it to a point system.

I don't like the option listed to give someone a badge for one day of participation. If you aren't committed to something, you shouldn't get it. If it is a case where there was a lack of work, sorry but not everyone gets a trophy. We're not in T-ball here. If it is going to be that low, then I see no difference in giving someone a badge for a single WU returned. It is just rediculous to me.

A change up of the badges themselves means a lot of work for whomever does it. At first I thought maybe just have a box or circle filled in with a color representing a level and just putting a number in it indicating your total number apps in there. However, that would mean making thousands of badges and would consume a lot of time. Then I thought maybe just doing number increments of 20 and possibly putting a + after it to represent going over that number. That way you would only have one blue, green, red, gold, silver, and bronze for a total of 6 badges. Then you just change the number in each. But, for purpose of banners, this could get a bit much.

So, I think [AF>WildWildWest] should just pick one and go with it or put up a poll.
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Message 1581 - Posted: 6 Sep 2013, 18:32:17 UTC - in response to Message 1579.


Yeah, it would be much better to force it on the populaces rather than letting them have a choice ... :P ... Personally I like keeping them guessing to just where I'm at.


How about having it on by default, but opt out? That way people have a choice, and the 99% of users happy to enable it but just don't know it's there will have it enabled.


No, I don't feel any Option that has to do with your Preferences where other people can see it should be on by Default, when the day comes I'm forced to do something I don't want to do is the Day I Quit BOINC ... :)

As far as I'm concerned we're already Statistically Stated to Death already by the numerous Stat's Sites, I never have payed much attention to them & now that I don't run as much anymore I pay even less attention to them ...;)
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Message 1582 - Posted: 7 Sep 2013, 10:10:14 UTC - in response to Message 1581.


No, I don't feel any Option that has to do with your Preferences where other people can see it should be on by Default


By the same logic your points total should be hidden by default, too.

Sellyme, I'm not sure what you were arguing about WUProp points, but that should be brought up in another post. It could be a very long drawn out discussion on weights and measures of systems vs. points. I don't think that subject has anything to do with the badges being upgraded unless we change it to a point system.


I was using the points system as a guide as to where you can say "It is 100% certain that no-one with less points than x can possibly have badge y. I actually ended up making a miscalculation (which I corrected before posting) that made that preface fairly worthless though, but I left it in as a bit of interest.

I don't like the option listed to give someone a badge for one day of participation. If you aren't committed to something, you shouldn't get it. If it is a case where there was a lack of work, sorry but not everyone gets a trophy.


20 days of participation*. That badge I proposed is for 20 projects with 24 hours of runtime. For a user on a dual-core machine, that would take 10 days non-stop at best. And by the logic of "10 days isn't enough work to be rewarded", should we also not give points to users who haven't returned at least a month of work?

If it is going to be that low, then I see no difference in giving someone a badge for a single WU returned. It is just rediculous to me.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

A change up of the badges themselves means a lot of work for whomever does it. At first I thought maybe just have a box or circle filled in with a color representing a level and just putting a number in it indicating your total number apps in there. However, that would mean making thousands of badges and would consume a lot of time.


In theory that would be possible through PHP rather than using the generic image system that most BOINC projects use, but having not run a BOINC project I'm not sure how feasible that would be to implement. Additionally, I feel like it would convey a lot less information and just make for an unnecessary change.

Then I thought maybe just doing number increments of 20 and possibly putting a + after it to represent going over that number. That way you would only have one blue, green, red, gold, silver, and bronze for a total of 6 badges. Then you just change the number in each. But, for purpose of banners, this could get a bit much.


Again, in theory, that would be cool, and would look pretty, but it would be a logistical pain in the ass to both implement, and get used to, and it isn't really much better than the current system so much as just different. I certainly wouldn't complain if that's what we started with, but I just don't see any reason to expend effort in swapping over to it for no real gain.

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Message 1584 - Posted: 7 Sep 2013, 10:18:55 UTC - in response to Message 1582.
Last modified: 7 Sep 2013, 10:40:43 UTC


No, I don't feel any Option that has to do with your Preferences where other people can see it should be on by Default


By the same logic your points total should be hidden by default, too


That wouldn't bother me in the least, in fact if it was an Option I'd have that Hidden Too, it's really nobodies business to know what I have & I don't give a hoot about what you or other people have so I don't need to know yours or their's either ... It wouldn't bother me either if they cut out the Credits completely at all the Projects & Zeroed everybody out, then we would see who the True BOINC People were ...

Other than my 1'st Post to start this thread were I was just inquiring about what the Admins Intentions were I don't care one way or the other if they increase the Star Amount or the Star Hr Levels, if they leave them the same & do nothing then that's fine with me ...

I won't add more stars. I will just increase Hours amount.
Probably, 10,000 - 25,000 - 50,000 and 100,000 hours


I see all these Proposed Schemes flying thru the Thread but the only one that matters to me is the one the Admin did comment on (above) is the one to Increase the Hr's Totals. They may change their minds about that but until they do or say something different I'll go by that & you can Propose till your blue in the Face but I'll ignore that. Maybe you should apply for an Admin Job here so you can Propose from an Admins Position & then your Proposals would carry some weight ... ;)

Oh by the way your Credit Total's isn't a Preference as far as I'm concerned, it's just something the Project Posts under Computing and credit & not in the Preference Group so logic be damn ... :P
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Message 1585 - Posted: 7 Sep 2013, 13:06:29 UTC

Personally, I like the 2nd of the admin's proposals in his first post to this thread. But frankly, I don't care which change, so long as something is implemented. Being maxed out is no fun.
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Message 1586 - Posted: 7 Sep 2013, 13:25:16 UTC - in response to Message 1585.

Personally, I like the 2nd of the admin's proposals in his first post to this thread. But frankly, I don't care which change, so long as something is implemented. Being maxed out is no fun.


Errrp ... I missed that one, I was just going by his 2'nd Proposal then, but agree with you on it would be nice that something be done so we know for sure what direction to go in ... :)
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Message 1587 - Posted: 8 Sep 2013, 12:17:34 UTC - in response to Message 1345.

Question about potential future badges,

I'm searching how I could add new badges.
A solution could be to increase badges size, so I could add more stars.
For example
:
20 apps || 40 apps || 60 apps || 80 apps || 100 apps | 120 apps | 140 apps | 160 apps | 180 apps



I could also increase credits amounts like this:

100 hours
250 hours
500 hours
1,000 hours
2,500 hours
5,000 hours
10,000 hours
25,000 hours
50,000 hours
100,000 hours
250,000 hours

Two weeks of comments and suggestions,

I won't add more stars. I will just increase Hours amount.
Probably, 10,000 - 25,000 - 50,000 and 100,000 hours.

Five more weeks of comments, reviews and collectively good suggestions, we find ourselves back where we started and talking to the wall.

The only possible interest to me within the next year would be a 10Kh star. Beyond that a 25000h star might be something for me in about 5years.
My suggestions were primarily intended to benefit others and the projects, but I get the feeling I wasted my time.

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Message 1588 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 2:23:02 UTC - in response to Message 1582.
Last modified: 9 Sep 2013, 2:24:01 UTC

Then I thought maybe just doing number increments of 20 and possibly putting a + after it to represent going over that number. That way you would only have one blue, green, red, gold, silver, and bronze for a total of 6 badges. Then you just change the number in each. But, for purpose of banners, this could get a bit much.


Again, in theory, that would be cool, and would look pretty, but it would be a logistical pain in the ass to both implement, and get used to, and it isn't really much better than the current system so much as just different. I certainly wouldn't complain if that's what we started with, but I just don't see any reason to expend effort in swapping over to it for no real gain.


I think you are missing a ton then. I thought I conveyed those ideas weren't good enough but I guess you missed that by trying to dissect it. What else you missed is that it conveys just as much if not more information then the current system. The huge advantage to that line of thinking was that it eliminated the ceiling. How is that not a huge improvement? The only thing that idea did not cover was how to acknowledge those who push single apps long beyond the Sapphire level. But, I guess some people are looking for a more grade school sticker look then an actual system that covers those who exceed the system that was warned to be lacking from the very beginning. http://wuprop.boinc-af.org/forum_thread.php?id=159&nowrap=true#824
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Message 1589 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 7:49:36 UTC - in response to Message 1588.


I think you are missing a ton then. I thought I conveyed those ideas weren't good enough but I guess you missed that by trying to dissect it.


...are you actually complaining that I was agreeing with you? If you didn't want the ideas to be commented on, why did you post them?

What else you missed is that it conveys just as much if not more information then the current system. The huge advantage to that line of thinking was that it eliminated the ceiling. How is that not a huge improvement?


Because we can do it with other methods that don't require completely reworking the entire system.

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Message 1590 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 9:24:01 UTC - in response to Message 1588.
Last modified: 9 Sep 2013, 10:02:00 UTC

I guess some people are looking for a more grade school sticker look then an actual system that covers those who exceed the system that was warned to be lacking from the very beginning. http://wuprop.boinc-af.org/forum_thread.php?id=159&nowrap=true#824

Badge systems inherently have limitations, and how successful they will be is unknown until some time after they have been implemented (which is why they get tested and amended/appended to).

As we were discussing (in this thread) a redesign of the badge system, it sounded like a good time (if not the last and only chance) to tackle some of the badge systems limitations, and hopefully reduce them to make the project more inclusive, while at the same time pander to those who would like a greater challenge (whether its for one star, five or more).

As is, people who crunch for less than 20apps can't be recognized (and some people have hundreds of thousands of hours), runtime beyond 5000h for an app is uncredited (zombie67 has over 380,000 uncredited hours) and only 100 apps get included into the badge system (zombie67 has more than 60apps that have over 100h runtime, but count towards nothing).
- It needs to be broader and steeper!

A simple way to do this would be to reduce the number of apps required for the first star, but steadily increase the number for the next stars:

This would facilitate those who want to contribute to the data collection for WUProp, but only support a small number of Boinc projects, and make getting a 4th and 5th star more challenging (150apps required rather than 100):
    First Star - 10 apps
    Second Star - 20 apps
    Third Star - 30 apps
    Fourth Star - 40 apps
    Fifth Star - 50 apps


If that's too short sighted, then the acquisition of the later stars could be made even more challenging (for a total of 260apps):

    First Star - 10 apps
    Second Star - 25 apps
    Third Star - 50 apps
    Fourth Star - 75 apps
    Fifth Star - 100 apps


Such a system would be more inclusive, could keep existing app hours (including those hitherto unrecognized) and would tie in well with the proposed additional star levels of 10K, 25K, 50Kh, 100Kh,

    10,000 hours
    25,000 hours
    50,000 hours
    100,000 hours


This would keep everyone busy for years - basically any contribution you made would be recognized. It would also be easier to implement than many of the proposed systems.

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Message 1591 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 12:52:18 UTC - in response to Message 1590.
Last modified: 9 Sep 2013, 12:53:05 UTC


This would facilitate those who want to contribute to the data collection for WUProp, but only support a small number of Boinc projects, and make getting a 4th and 5th star more challenging (150apps required rather than 100):
    First Star - 10 apps
    Second Star - 20 apps
    Third Star - 30 apps
    Fourth Star - 40 apps
    Fifth Star - 50 apps



It took me a while to understand this, it's slightly misleading, am I correct in saying that your proposal is actually:

1st: 10
2nd: 30
3rd: 60
4th: 100
5th: 150

?

I'm a big fan of triangle numbers, so I wouldn't mind that badge system, but the problem is that it'll strip badges from those who already have them, which is a big no-no.


If that's too short sighted, then the acquisition of the later stars could be made even more challenging (for a total of 260apps):
    First Star - 10 apps
    Second Star - 25 apps
    Third Star - 50 apps
    Fourth Star - 75 apps
    Fifth Star - 100 apps



No-one is going to get 260 apps for a long time. There's barely even 150 non-alpha apps that you can reliably get to 100 hours, let alone several thousand. I wouldn't mind the fifth star being somewhere around 150 (if it wasn't for the badge removal issue I mentioned earlier), but I feel like the best way to accommodate for the increase in apps is to just add more stars when there's actually enough apps to get them. Having badges that are literally impossible to achieve is a bad idea.

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Message 1592 - Posted: 9 Sep 2013, 15:49:10 UTC - in response to Message 1591.
Last modified: 9 Sep 2013, 16:12:47 UTC

Misleading or open to misinterpretation ;P To clarify verbosely, the suggestion was,

    First Star - First 10 apps - (apps 1 to 10 based on runtime); so 10 apps for 100h each for the first Bronze...
    Second Star - Next 20 apps - (apps 11 to 30 based on runtime); another 20 apps for 100h for a second Bronze...
    Third Star - Next 30 apps - (apps 31 to 60 based on runtime); another 30 apps for 100h for the third Bronze...
    Fourth Star - Next 40 apps - (apps 61 to 100 based on runtime); another 40 apps for 100h for a fourth Bronze...
    Fifth Star - Next 50 apps - (apps 101 to 150 based on runtime); another 50apps for 100h for a fifth bronze...


In the very short run, people with 4 or 5 stars might lose a star or two, and would likely have the level drop if their 4th or 5th star was a high one, but we are talking about a handful of people. The same people would probably get a higher badge for the first or second stars, and would have a reason to crunch different projects and participate at WUProp for a lot longer. Overall more people would actually get a star than lose one, and more people would get a higher star than a lower star. Any app that has already reached 100h would still have that 100h mark, so existing achievements would stand at the level of the app hours completed - the required hours wouldn't be changing.

It's not about sticking to the existing system and making everybody happy today. It's about augmenting it through change to facilitate more people, and for longer.

Based on 'this suggestion', your stars wouldn't change. However you would be closer to a Gold (and Red), just as close to making your second star silver and a third star Bronze, but further off from a fourth star, which you are some way away form anyway :)

Zombie67's first star would be a 10,000 hours star and he'd be half way to the 25,000 hours star, his next star would be Blue (as is), but he would be 90% on his way to a second 10Kh star, his next two badges would also be blue (as is), and only his fifth star would be silver (but only 1 app away from Gold, and I'm sure he could make it red in a few weeks). I expect STE\/E's tally would be something similar.

Mumps would change from a Blue, Red and Silver to a 50,000 hours star, blue and silver. At present Mumps has 3,386,295 hours that counts for nothing here - that's a bit ridiculous!

PanStaszek would change from to a 10,000 hours star and he'd be very close to the 25,000 hours star, the next star would be Green, but only two apps away from blue (as is), the next would be Red and then a Bronze, but he would need more apps for a fifth star.

Coleslaw's badge would change from , to a 10,000 hours star, followed by a Green, Red and Bronze. While he would lose out on a fifth star, his first two would increase to higher levels.

vaughan would change from to a 10,000 hours star, followed by a Green and a Gold.

bundaboy would change form to a 10,000 hours star and a Green

tng would change form to Blue and Red.

I think such changes would make things more interesting for everyone and for the long run.

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Message 1593 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 6:40:30 UTC

Wow, great research there with your examples. I'm still a bit dismissive of losing badges, as getting different ones in return still doesn't quite make up from it, but the examples you've give have definitely shown that the system is pretty generous, and it seems like it'd make the badge progression a lot more dynamic and progressive, too.

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Message 1594 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 7:37:01 UTC
Last modified: 10 Sep 2013, 7:39:00 UTC

Since I'm getting to old to Comprehend all this Badge Scheming I take it I'd go from Steve's the 1'st to reach the maximum Stars to Steve doesn't have Squat anymore & isn't even close to the maximum level. I suppose the Project will have to retract it's Statement then ... :P ... 5 Stars Forward & 4 Stars backwards, great plan, about the way BOINC runs anyway so might as well go with it ...
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Message 1596 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 11:06:58 UTC - in response to Message 1594.
Last modified: 10 Sep 2013, 11:30:43 UTC

STE\/E, you would always be the fist to have reached the maximum badges on the old system, and translated into this proposed hypothetical system, you would also have been the first to reach 4 Blue stars...
Think of it like this, it gives you another opportunity to be the first to get 5 blues again, or get 5 10Kh stars, first to reach three or four 10,000h stars...
For you and Z it would put life back into the projects badge system, and you would still be trailblazers.

BTW. Anyone (2 people) with 5 blue stars would still have a minimum of 4 blue stars, and anyone with 5 lesser stars (25 people) would still have a minimum of 4 stars, but in both cases most people would probably already have at least one higher level badge.

Would be interested in what everyone else thinks of this system, and most importantly if it or any other system will actually materialize, otherwise there is really no point in continuing discussions.

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Message 1598 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 13:06:09 UTC

I like the proposal, seems like a balanced approach.

I'd lose my newly gained 5th star personally, but it would give me an incentive to keep going.
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Message 1599 - Posted: 10 Sep 2013, 13:31:27 UTC

It's okay by me too, but it's the Admin you have to convince & get them to do something ...
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